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Up to:  Biker's CafeThis should be a good place for all purpose talks, better than interleaving our discussions with "Time Trial Champions" comments.
BikerBrian | PoliticsWow! I stirred up a hornets nest by bringing up politics. Sorry guys, you can blame me. 
Let me start by saying that I am in complete agreement with Vega's last post in the GC thread (this discussion has now been moved to its own thread).
As Kris said, we each have our own personal beliefs about political (and religious) issues, so there is no sense trying to persuade each other.
However, I do need to add my 2 cents to Xuzz's comments. Regarding taxes: Even under the current "Bush system", people who earn more still pay WAY more than anyone else (actual and percentage). The top 5% earn 31.99% of all wages, but pay 53.25% of all income taxes. The top 50% pay 96.03% of all income taxes. The bottom 50% are paying a tiny bit of the taxes (3.97%), so you can't give them much of a tax cut by definition. Yet these are the people that Democrats claim to want to give tax cuts. Remember this the next time you hear the "tax cuts for the rich" business. Understand that the so-called rich are about the only ones paying taxes anymore.
The tax cuts have been unfairly labeled by the media to imply that they only help the rich, but that's crap. The "rich" are just being allowed to keep more of their own money. As Vega so eloquently put it, the better off they (and their companies) are, the better off everyone else will be. It is a terrible idea to punish success. If taxes are raised on businesses and employers, they will simply pass this burden on to customers and employees.
As for this election, we will have to agree to disagree if you (Xuzz) think Obama (who has the most liberal record in the U.S. Senate -  http://nj.nationaljou rnal.com/voteratings/) is better suited to run our country and unite it than McCain (who has a proven track record of working together with members from both parties).
Either way, our votes in CA and TN won't matter anyway. Obama will get California's electoral votes and McCain will get Tennessee's. There will be very little campaign money spent in either state. |
Lee
|  |  | I'm sorry to dive in. I was trying to stay out of these discussions. I was delighted by the speeches by both election combatants and honestly - yes - anything would have been better than the last two terms by Bush Jr.
So I'm happy - both for the USA, and for the rest of us small countries across the other side of the globe who have been dramatically affected by the US policy.
@Pickle - Socialism is not Communism. I am a socialist.
I believe in community support for those less fortunate
I believe that people who want to work should be afforded basic protections to their employment conditions, and that collective agreement is an acceptable bargaining position.
I believe that certain core services, such as education, health and clean water should be government controlled and available to all, and that these things cannot be run purely upon their economic return - that's why they are "services"
I believe that obscenely polarized wealth is a sign of a sick society
These are the fundamental tenets of Socialism, and the fiscal choices that Liberals are likely to lean towards.
You should realize that Communism, as a country political choice no longer exists.
You can go find a Commune to live in (these can be religious, or ethical) - and "share" what you have and "support" your peers through hard times... these are wonderful environments.
Capital Communism attempts to remove any polarization of wealth at all. Any. This is anathema to the work effort, and destroys competitive effort, and any potential entrepreneurism. The result is that power is then wielded by those in the political heights, instead of the wealthy heights. It becomes a total control state not “for the people”, but in fact “over the people”
Before you get excited about “labels” and hung up on them, I suggest that you pause to think about what labels you do not enjoy people using to simplify your position. Then you might realize that there are grey areas to all positions. We don’t all have to be extremists – even if that polarization of view points is what is sold to you by your elders. |
| Mr.pickle.
|  | | Lee, sosiallism is punishing success and hard work, you spend your hoal life trying to get rich,you finally make half a million,then what happens? Obama comes in and sais
"I am sorry but theres a homeless and lazy bum living outside my house,he needs this money more than you, so I am going to take 90% of it away, ok?"
How is that ok?
Not to mention 250k a year is NOTHING almost every busniss makes that much! I know a barber, who has just him, he has maby 20 people come in a day and get a haircut,for 5$ each haircut, and he still makes more than 250k a year. a barber shop is like the deffinition of a SMALL bisness you dont get much smaller,enless that is your a 7 year old selling lemonade outside your house...
Sosiallism as put by some marxist back around 200 years ago said it kinda like this(not an exact quote here but..)
"Sosialism is a great bridge into communism"
Sosiallism often leads to eventual communism.
and most of all lee that ending comment.
"We don’t all have to be extremists – even if that polarization of view points is what is sold to you by your elders."
I dont really know that I am understanding this comment right...but from what I can tell, you are saying that I am learning from my elders...DUH! WHere else is a teenager supposed to learn from?!?!My parents have given me there lifes, they pour there money into me, there time teaching me(I am homeschooled as of this year),they love me more than they love themselfs, it seems if nothing else I at least owe them my respect obediance, and it makes sense that I should learn from there polocies. They voted for mcain, but thats not why I am for mcain, and agianst obama, I have personally listend to TV on FOX news,as well as Cnn ABC and a few others, I also listen to talk radio, I figer if I am going to watch liberal news I should hear the other side of things as well.
Then I go on the internet and look up what is actully correct(of course they dont have to be truthfull on live TV so I dont know why I expect them to be online.. ) and as far as I can tell, the people on talk radio are WAY more truthfull than the people on CNN,FOX,and ABC.
I have chosen myself lee, not simply listend to my "elders" I live by morals also, and I frankly dont like obamas(Tho I dont want to start up the argument about abortion,and gay marriage agian, simply because I don't consider myself addequet in speach enuf to argue those issues).
Thats all, remember lee, EVERY news channel is now run by liberals, its mostly filled with lies, journelism is dead, There are 2 sides to every story,that is why I watch all the news channels as well as listenning to talk radio when I am in the car, I made my choice, I havent let anyone make it for me.
and I have no time right now to read through this and try to fix the spelling, so youl all just have to live with it.... |
| BikerBrian
| | | Sorry about the misstatement on my part. You're right Lee, I meant to say that Obama's policies were Socialist. Either way, what is the motivation to work hard if the government will take from you and give to everyone else?
Don't get me wrong, I definitely believe in helping those in need (and I do it on a regular basis). I just don't agree that the government should be in charge of "leveling the playing field".
I realize that in your opinion the government should control education, health, and water. Your government evidently does a better job running these things than ours does. How do taxes work where you live? Is there sales tax? Income tax? Any other taxes? IMO, Obama is wrong to want to soak the "wealthy" and businesses (however, he proved it is the way to buy votes). How many jobs are offered by businesses that don't make money? When he taxes them more, they will simply pass it on to everyone, including the "lower- and middle-class". I personally don't think his policies will work in growing the economy, but I guess we don't have any choice but to wait and see.
Speaking of obscene wealth, have you seen the many mansions that Hussein lived in?
BTW, I made a new avatar to honor Xuzz... everyone like it? |
| Lee
| | | thanks for the measured response BB - you are absolutely correct that there is a grey area where fiscal policy can iether promote a work ethic, or stifle it. Here in NZ, we have quite high taxation... necessary for a small popluation in a spread out country. It works, but it is a constant tension to monitor expenditure... and it doesn't always work.
Still... I am an Engineer, and my wife is a Doctor... we both earn a pretty solid wage... and I admit, that I am lazy in giving to charity... though I do give directly to causes in my local community... but what we are talking about in fiscal terms is a desire to see taxation altered "slightly" in favour of social support, rather than rewarding the already wealthy.
I would pay 3% more in income tax, if I knew it would improve education and health for the masses.
I wouldn't pay 90% tax - nor would any socially minded "liberal, "socialist" (pick your own profanity pickle) - again... that is what I mean by an extremist viewpoint.
I don't know what pickle is quoting about socialism often leading to communism...
The USSR has come full circle and realised that the world is a capital economy, and China was never socialist - it's brand of communism has a lot more to do with facism, than societal well-being.
The UK has been socialist for most of this last 2 decades with no sign of abandoning market fiscal philosophy.
The Scandinavian countries have been socially fiscally minded for most of the centrury, and have the highest literacy and best health statistics of the world.
I like to hear what you have to say BB
I just wish that Pickle was capable of a moderatation of his opinion.
I don't care who won the election, I dont care if they are black, white, republican, democrate, capitalist or socialist.
I don't believe that a poliarized political position is helpful... it is combative.
Both McCain and Obama spoke clearly about moving forward in a partnership and respect for one another.
I just dont hear much respect from Pickle, and I believe you should treat others how you wish to be treated.
Political success lies in giving away your hard fought battles to compromise.
Peace.
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| bones
|  | | does does anyone else think pickle's been brainwashed into political stupidity. pickle a get a job live on your own for a bit and then your views will change..ALOT..take it from someone who just did that |
| Vega
|  | | Like Lee, I am pulled into this conversation by the dialogue. While I don't agree with everything I am reading, understanding it has value.
Of all of the people that I have spoken to face to face, over email, on the phone, read their comments online, heard them on the news, etc etc... Lee's comments for "the other side"  are the most intellectual, the most well pondered. Often times, people just spit out whacked comments in defense of their beliefs, and while there is value in the passion that drives that behavior, it's not effective. I admire Lee's viewpoints because I can see that he really is thinking it through.
Forced socialism is a terrible thing. I am completely inline with BB and his viewpoints. Everyday that I get up in the dark at 4:xx am to go into downtown San Diego and work, I am asked by someone (often times 10 or more people on my lunch break alone) for money handouts. Some people I have seen for several years. No matter the person, I believe they are all God's children and still carry inside them the desire to live a great life. And while I have a heart for these people, I still understand the basic fundamental truth that people will do what people will do, and there are consequences/rewards for choices in life. I ain't tryin to get all preachy and holier than though, because I'm not perfect at all. I just grasp the concept of maintaining a positive outlook and moving forward regardless of my circumstances. I could look back on my life and see many many roads to bring me onto the streets as well. All it would take is a few bad decisions. Helping the "less fortunate" is a very noble endeavor in most cases. I have participated at many many events for that cause and will continue to do so. In a thrashed economy, while so very many people are staring down the pipe at a painfully bleak future, I am personally on the right track financially. This is a direct result of intentional "decisions" I have made when it wasn't easy. (oh the pressures of family and friends ) I understand what it's like to want (and need) more. I hurt for the people who are in a mess at this time. I would never mock that. Obviously here I am not referring to homeless people, but people who have (or had) nice homes and have (or had) good jobs and are now in serious trouble financially. This not the time to redistribute the wealth. The Govy has already decided to make us pay for a large chunk of these financial mistakes with their socialist bailout, even though I don't quite remember co-signing for those mortgages. In fact, I strongly encouraged against it. But this is not the time for "I told you so" even though I could easily say to many. It's the time to encourage. It's the time to rebuild. It's the time to change course and make good decisions.
Socialistic tax policies and a socialistic society will severely damage the American economy. America was built on Free Enterprise. Why do people come here? For opportunity. It's the free market. Now... I will be the first person to acknowledge that there are grossly overpaid executives that do not earn their pay and quite honestly should have it swiped from them. How can I guy make 90 Million dollars in a few short years just because he was elected as the head of a mortgage company?... then bail out with all of it via dirty bonuses and screw everyone on the back end. (the "little guys"). They likely worked much harder than he/she did anyway. Trust me, I understand that reality. But that is the very small minority of people making $250K plus. Most people who make $250K plus work INSANELY hard for it. And Uncle Sam already takes his unfair share. Higher percentages on higher earnings equals stupidly disproportionate tax contributions by the wealthy. I'd also like to bring up 2 major key points.
1. Wealthy people pay most of the tax in America already.
2. Wealthy people buy a lot of things. The more they spend, the more they already ARE redistributing the wealth, via spending.
Who lays the tile in their homes? Who prepares their meals? Cleans their homes? Makes their cars? Who gets their tips? Makes their clothes? Who profits from their investments? (nobody right now ) Who made their furniture? their electronics... etc etc.
A man needs to not have a ceiling. A man needs to be able to dream as big as he wants. I used to think that I didn't want to make too much money. I used to think that it would be greedy if I did. That's before I associated with wealthy people. They taught me that you don't have to spend all your wealth on yourself and your family. I know a guy who has a dream to live off 10% and give away 90%. I look back and realize that I had been influenced by people who thought selfishly. Now I don't have a limit to what I want to make. Because I understand that I can choose to do amazing things with wealth that will in turn bless others.
This is exactly why I believe that less government is essential to a free market society. The only type of control that needs to take place in a major way is control of big income executives that are not rightfully earning their money. The so called "bonuses" and elusive "options" and hidden "incentives" have gotten WAY out of hand. In my opinion, that's not earned money. That's snaked money.
Anywho, all this mish mash to say that I do not hate Obama/Democrats. But I strongly disagree with many of Obama's policies/ideals. I think WAY to much emphasis is being placed on ethnicity. I don't care if that dude's skin color is bright purple. So long as he stands on character in his leadership... a combination that we haven't really seen since Reagan.
May God bless America for sure. We really need it right now. Time will tell.
-Vega 
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| bones
| | | and thus this shall be rememberd as the longest and most irrelevant (in 4 years time) thread ever. amen
seriously yo why did we ever bring up politics here? i get enough of that wherever else i go. |
| Xuzz
|  | | The post that started it all! |
| Mr.pickle.
| | | my point exactly vega,but as always you say it better |
| mike flips
|  | | Can someone tell me where i can go and set up a barber shop and cut hair for 20 people a day for 5 dollars a cut, making $125 a day, and then claim i make over 250k a year? That would be lovely.
I think everyone needs to take a page out of John Rawls' book. He came up with this thing called the "veil of ignorance." It is a tool used for ethical problem solving in which every person goes under this veil. So for example, we have a situation where there are poor people on the streets with no money and rich people with ferraris. Is this fair? Well, dont answer that yet. Go under the veil of ignorance. Now, look at the situation from an unbiased perspective. From this point of view, you have an equal chance of being the rich guy or the poor guy. Assuming you would be the poor guy, how would you feel? I am sure that every single person here would want some sort of handout or welfare in order to survive off of or to get back on your feet. I dont think anyone here would say that if they were the poor guy they wouldnt want anything. Of course you would want something. So to offset the chance of being the poor person you would agree that there needs to be some sort of system in place to help the poor person. The only way this person can receive any help is through taxes. Thus the rich person must pay slightly more taxes. So again ask yourself, if there was a 50/50 chance that you could be either guy, what policy would you put in place. We would all choose that the rich person must give some sort of money in taxes so that the poor person could have money. None of us would institute a policy in which the poor person would just starve to death on the street.
Now that we have looked at the situation from the outside, it is clear that there has to be some policy in place to protect the poor guy, because if any of us were the poor guy, we would definitely want the money.
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| Mr.pickle.
| | | Mike,the barber shop illestration was not an exact figer, he charges 5$ a haircut and based on how many people are there when I am, I would gess he has around 20-30 a day, and he sais that under obamas tax plan he would be countted as making right around.....290k a year in gross income.
and mike,you won't belive me but if I were the poor man, I would want to get back up on my own. its probly my own fault if I am poor and homeless, I belive they should be cared for to the point that they dont starve to death or anything,but financial help is not needd, as in most cases with people THAT poor they would often simply use the money on drugs. hence homeless shelters...free lodging...free food...tho once youv eated and slept there, your on your own, till the next day, free to go job searching and such.
btw bones, I forgot to answer your ealyer post, My opinions havent changed since I made them, now seeying as I am only 16 I relise thats not really saying much, but still.
I will always stand for common sense morals. a.k.a dont kill unborn babies,marriage is for a man and a woman, not a man and a man, searve the Lord in whatever way is possible. |
| Vega
| | | I say with almost total certainty.... that "the poor guy" is "the poor guy" by choice, not by chance. Yes people fall on hard economic times, and yes there are circumstances where it is appropriate to lend a helping hand up.... but not a hand out! We are all in life exactly where our decisions have brought us, like it or not. Everyone has a different beginning. Some have a head start. Some do not. But everyone has choices. The tallest obstacle for 99.999% of people in the world is themselves. We are snared by the words of our mouths, and the thoughts of our minds, and the desires of of hearts. You thoughts will mold your actions. Your actions will mold your character. Your character will mold your destiny. You are the captain of your own ship, not the governenment. Steer it true. |
| mike flips
| | | well that should be considered under the veil as well.
There is a chance that this person's dad was an alcoholic who went into jail. His mother killed herself. And he dropped out of high school. Lacking the education he needed he could not find a job. If he went back to school and stopped asking for money on the streets he would not have any money to survive.
I know that is extreme but there are a lot of people on the streets that aren't there by choice. Maybe it is only 1/5 of them, but, consider the situation again from the outside and you are this 1/5 homeless person. You still don't want help?
Sometimes people end up in a bind and they need some way out, or else they will be stuck in a vicious cycle and can never escape. Its similar to a poor person that is injured and needs immediate health care. Should we let them die? Looking from the outside, if it was you, you would definitely want the health care. |
| Vega
| | | I think that guy should be just like Eminem. F the world. right?
cmon man. Everyone has a different sob story. I can identify a major mistake that lead the guy in your story to the streets. "And he dropped out of highscool". Oh, let me bust out my checkbook to pay because that kids parents were jacked up and homedude said screw it. Their bad choices = debit from my account. Nice.
Ok I'm gonna boil this down to one sentence. One individual problem that is so huge, so important, that it literally creates a ripple effect across all lines of humanity.
Ready? Here it is......
** If one that makes good decisions must pay for one that makes bad decisions, then bad decisions will increase and good decisions will decrease.**
No economic system on earth can grow and thrive with that equation at its heart.
Forced Socialistic policies directly violate the very foundation of the American free market. |
| Xuzz
| | | This quote from Harvard Magazine (July/August 2008) IMO shows this argument exactly:
"Americans and Europeans also tend to disagree about the causes of poverty. In a different survey—the World Values Survey, including 40 countries—American respondents were much more likely than European respondents (71 percent versus 40 percent) to agree with the statement that the poor could escape poverty if they worked hard enough. Conversely, 54 percent of European respondents, but only 30 percent of American respondents, agreed with the statement that luck determines income.
It makes intuitive sense that those who view poverty as a personal failing don’t feel compelled to redistribute money from the rich to the poor. Indeed, Ropes professor of political economy Alberto Alesina and Glimp professor of economics Edward L. Glaeser find a strong link between beliefs and tax policy: they find that a 10-percent increase in the share of the population that believes luck determines income is associated with a 3.5-percent increase in the share of GDP a given nation’s government spends on redistribution."
Notice the difference in how Americans and Europeans/most of the rest of the world interpret the causes of poverty -- luck or personal fault. That is where this argument stems from (and also shows why Vega, BB, and pickle are on one side while Mike, Lee, and me (SF counts as another country  ) are on the other side of it). Why are Americans and other people around the world so different on this? I don't know for sure, though it may be because that is what the founders of America believed. But I find it interesting to examine really what we are arguing about and why the people are arguing their perspectives .
As Vega likes to do, I will also sum up this disagreement in a sentence :
** Americans are much more likely than the rest of the world to believe that the poor could not be in poverty if they worked hard enough. **
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| Mr.pickle.
| | | I agree with both of vegas posts.
@mike, Allow me to rephrase my answer.
Yes I would WANT help, but that does not mean I deserve it. I mean I right now am cared for by my parents but I still WANT candy I want so many airheads, if my parents let me have what I wanted all the time, I wouldent be in school,and I would be a fat lard who eats airheads all the time, while playing WOW on the internet all day long.
As humans we ALWAYS want more. so simply saying that if we were poor that we would WANT help really means nothing.
If I were poor, I would probly know it was own fault and yes since I am a lazy human being I would take all the help I could get. its whoever is giving the helps responsability to make sure they dont give me to much and spoil me, just like a parent can spoil there child into being a fat computernerd,airhead eater.
wierd illestration but very effective I think... |
| Mr.pickle.
| | | @xuzz, sorry no time to answer or even read your post right now... |
| Vega
| | | Xuzz, if I believe I can fly, and I jump off of a building, the only thing I will prove is that gravity exists. I can prove that a poor person can work hard and get out of poverty/low income, no matter what anyone believes in Europe. Most people have failure mentality, whether they understand it or not. Only a small percentage have and understand success mentality. This is the reason why there are so few wealthy people.
Alright everyone.... I am basically retiring from this topic/thread. I have thoroughly enjoyed discussing these great viewpoints with you all. @ Bones - I don't think this thread was a waste of time (not even in 4 years). The comments I have read here has made me think quite a bit about what I believe. I think that's very healthy. I hope all of the people who have commented here and read these posts can say the same.
Barack Obama is our new President. This is what America has voted for.
I will press on in life and continue to move forward.
Thanks so much to everyone!
-Vega |
| Xuzz
| | | Vega: I know that some poor people can get out of poverty if they try hard enough (but not everyone). I'm just saying that is where the argument here is coming from . |
| mike flips
| | | Yes xuzz, thats the whole point. Some people made bad choices and screwed up. But some people got screwed over. I guess my example wasn't that great. How about Enron then. What about the people who lost their savings. (You cant argue they made a bad choice by working there...) What about situations where people's homes are fraudulently stolen. Sure the cases are few and far between, but under the veil, there is a chance that it can be you. Do you say "screw the person" under the veil? I guess if you are a gambling person, you may say, "Hey the odds are 1/10000 that it will be me, so screw him/her" but if you dont want that risk surely you'd help them.
@Vega - we know you will be back in the thread |
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