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Up to:  Biker's CafeThis should be a good place for all purpose talks, better than interleaving our discussions with "Time Trial Champions" comments.
BikerBrian | PoliticsWow! I stirred up a hornets nest by bringing up politics. Sorry guys, you can blame me. 
Let me start by saying that I am in complete agreement with Vega's last post in the GC thread (this discussion has now been moved to its own thread).
As Kris said, we each have our own personal beliefs about political (and religious) issues, so there is no sense trying to persuade each other.
However, I do need to add my 2 cents to Xuzz's comments. Regarding taxes: Even under the current "Bush system", people who earn more still pay WAY more than anyone else (actual and percentage). The top 5% earn 31.99% of all wages, but pay 53.25% of all income taxes. The top 50% pay 96.03% of all income taxes. The bottom 50% are paying a tiny bit of the taxes (3.97%), so you can't give them much of a tax cut by definition. Yet these are the people that Democrats claim to want to give tax cuts. Remember this the next time you hear the "tax cuts for the rich" business. Understand that the so-called rich are about the only ones paying taxes anymore.
The tax cuts have been unfairly labeled by the media to imply that they only help the rich, but that's crap. The "rich" are just being allowed to keep more of their own money. As Vega so eloquently put it, the better off they (and their companies) are, the better off everyone else will be. It is a terrible idea to punish success. If taxes are raised on businesses and employers, they will simply pass this burden on to customers and employees.
As for this election, we will have to agree to disagree if you (Xuzz) think Obama (who has the most liberal record in the U.S. Senate -  http://nj.nationaljou rnal.com/voteratings/) is better suited to run our country and unite it than McCain (who has a proven track record of working together with members from both parties).
Either way, our votes in CA and TN won't matter anyway. Obama will get California's electoral votes and McCain will get Tennessee's. There will be very little campaign money spent in either state. |
Mr.pickle.
|  | | Lee
|  |  | McCain = 72 years old, and could very conceivably drop dead at any time.
Palin = Fundamentalist Christian with NO political experience or awareness of international affairs... would then become president by direct line of succession.
Whilst I am happy to see a woman on the ticket, it would be nice if she cared about womens rights. Under Palin, abortion would become criminalised, and women WOULD subsequently die.
It's been frightenning enough having a Crusading President carrying out an international campaign of fear against the muslim nations for the last 8 years... as an international with no voting rights, I would like to see a more measured / less fearful approach to governance internationally.
The USA is in a precarious position.. it's oil wealth is rocky at best, it's international debt is MASSIVE - and owner by the Saudis and China - who have covered around 65% of the US international debt... what would happen if they cashed in their dollars tomorrow???
the nation need to focus internally... increase it's literacy, sort out its health care system, and attempt to raise its mortality statistics out of the gutter... THEN it can cast the first stone overseas. |
| bones
|  | | LEE FOR 08!!! |
| Xuzz
|  | | Yay at least one person agrees with me  |
| Mr.pickle.
| | | Lee thats one of the reasons I like palin alot is that she is a woman who agrees that abortion is a sin. She would fight for making it illegal wich would be a great thing, it was illegal for YEARS! it was never evan legal at all till the supreme court started doing something it wasent saposed to do bye legeslating from the bench, perhaps someone with better people skills could explain this better? vega? biker brian? champ? anybody but me basicly
and bye the way xuzz Like I said a baby has braiwaves at 6-8 weeks.
Not to mention in u.s. it is legal up to the moment There born! wich is a horrible cruel thing called Murder! |
| Vega
|  | | - 72 or not, McCain is in good health. Nobody knows when anybody will die.
NO political experience or awareness? Interesting statement.
Womens rights? What rights? A mother would be jailed for life for killing a 1 minute old baby. What's the difference.
Fear? or Valiant Defense?
the battle in the middle east has nothing to do with casting stones. |
| Xuzz
| | | Xuzz
| | | Mr.pickle.
| | | I cant tell what that is xuzz....
So you think osama biin laden is a good man? oh! so thats why he dragged people throught the streets, cut out there tungs and then fed them live into meat grinders
Thanks You vega, that looks a ton better than mine.... |
| Mr.pickle.
| | | We posted at the same time xuzz, since were both on,Chat? I can be here for like 5 more minets I think. |
| Lee
| | | It is really interesting - certainly as a non-US resident, to see what the opinions are...
Firstly, let me congratulate you ALL on actually having an opinion... in a country where your current president elect holds his position with less than 50% of the country turning out to vote - I encourage discourse on POLICY at all levels - irrelevant of your political leanings... questioning the current democracy is always a good thing to do.
As an outsider though, I urge Americans to consider their appearance to the rest of the world.
Iraq NEVER had weapons of Mass Destruction
Iraq had NO ties with Osama Bin Laden, and in fact have a massive divide of different opinion with Al Qaieda policy.
Iraq are not, and never were part of the 09/11 destruction, and yet they have reaped the wind on it's wrath. How many civilians have been killed in an "eye for an eye" response to 09/11? - probably a few more than 2060 people I guarantee...
US political heirarchy has flatly refused to listen to any evidence that weakened apparent ties between Iraq and Al Qaieda, to the fact that the decision to Bomb Iraq was made clearly without evidence (later confirmed to be false)
Osama Bin Laden and almost all of the 09/11 highjackers were SAUDIs... and yet, you see NO SANCTIONS OR AGRESSIVE ACTIONS to Saudi Arabia... probably because they own governing shares in the USA National Debt.
USA has repeatedly used Christian rhetoric simultaneously with their purport to be the "good guys" versus the "islamic" "axis of evil". This is not helpful, diplomatic, or the voice of someone seeking a peaceful resolution.
I am not a conspiracy theorist - the US government has accepted all of these concepts as fact, and not altered their opinion a jot.
Pickle / Vega... I completely respect your religeous beliefs... I really do, but abortion is NOT legal in the USA up until 39 weeks.. check your facts, I think you may find that 24 weeks is the state of law (my wife is an OBGYN) - you are confusing the USA with CHINA - which does in fact allow abortions at term... which I agree is BARBARIC (but we don't mind if they make a good job of the olympics and sell us cheap consumer goods)
but, without SOME law on termination of pregnancy, there WILL be women who seek to terminate with inadequate medical care, because they are so intent on this... these women will DIE to the tune of around 1 in 10 women.... which is totally avoidable.... if you don't like a law, then work to undderstand the needs of those people that it serves... don't abolish it and punish those people for whome there appears to be little choice.
Obama is not a muslim - and if he was, that does not make him a fundamentalist... which Pr Bush certainly is.
People die - McCain could live another 40 years, and I cincerely hope he does, but Palin has NO international political experience - and like it or not, that scares me as one of the affected parties of a world potentially governed by her policy directly.
would love to hear more, and again... I am delighted to read intelligent questioning of political policy. |
| Xuzz
| | | Champ
|  | | Xuzz
| | | What if the fetus (NOT a baby yet) was going to be horribly disabled or both would die? |
| mike flips
|  | | "Think of the Lacy Peterson case. They charged for TWO murders because he killed his pregnant wife..."
The baby was killed at 6 months. Obviously its murder as that is past the abortion time limit.
Get some real facts
Plus Champ, your whole viewpoint is based on big IFs. We need solid facts. |
| Lee
| | | USA from the perspective of the rest of the world...
I think that if you want people to become less angry at you, then you should try to help them. If you help reduce poverty in less developed nations, then people are less likely to strap bombs to themselves to blow you up.
As long as the might-is-right philosophy of the USA persists, there will ALWAYS be people that are disempowered and have reduced choices to defend themselves.
Let us not forget that Osama bin Laden was educated in the ways of guerilla warfer by the USA CIA operatives... he was taught how to make boms, communicate with limited resources and use his contacts to maintain his arsenal of weapons....
Let me repeat this OSAMA WAS TAUGHT TO DO WHAT HE DOES BY THE USA.
It might have been to limit russian advances into northern afghanistan, but the end result was a fundamentalist, with excellent contacts, who was left high and dry by those who purported to support him.
surely not, I hear you say.... yet Yay, I say - go check it, ask your political representatives why they continue to let your government stick its fingers inot the political policy of countries that it has no fear of direct invasion from....
it is excellent policy to destabilise countries to help them keep fighting amongst themselves... it stops them coming after you, or your resources.
It is excellent political policy to have a frightenned electorate at home to canvas for more support to... frightenned people will do whatever you tell them, if you promise to make them safer...
Go and ask what the POLICY is .... don't be frightenned - ASK QUESTIONS... and if you don't get told the answers to these questions, ask your representatives what they don't like about the question.
I am fortunate to live in New Zealand, which is small and RELATIVELY transparent in its politics, and yet even in a small place with excellent open public discussion of plocy, it is really difficult to get a straight answer.
If someone tells you something... ask for verification, or evidence... without this, it is just OPINION.
Keep talking guys - great to be part of such a vibrant group of thinkers. |
| Xuzz
| | | Xuzz
| | | Anyone notice how everyone from outside the USA that has posted here is against McCain/Palin? Maybe shows how the rest of the world views these elections ? |
| Vega
| | | Most abortions have nothing to do with the death of the would be mother. Most abortions are performed simply to erase the natural occurrence of getting pregnant as a result of having sex.
some basic statistics
http://www.abortionno .org/Resources/fastfacts.html
Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient). |
| Champ
| | | You have a pleasant mind One, that is highly unlikely to happen. Two, I believe that everything happens for a reason. I believe god gives us disabled children for a reason. God gives us challenges. God tests us everyday |
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http://freefile.krist opherw.us/uploads/icefire/picture_8.png
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